- This topic has 36 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated March 6, 2008 at 3:15 pm by .
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Hey Liss
Excellent response. I’ll just try to respond to few
things that apparently I misunerstood.
— Liss <liss@budget101.com> wrote:
> Yup, I do. I suppose meeting thousands and thousand
> of people every
> year through my budgeting site has really opened my
> eyes as to taxes,
> fairness and how often people get screwed over by
> the system.
No argument that people are getting screwed over. Your
experience, admittedly broader than mine, has left you
with a different explanation of how people “get
screwed”.
Tax rates in the U.S, while increasingly hitting the
poor, working and middle class the hardest, are still
relatively low compared to other industrialized
nations. Moreover, all of these nations get something
in return for their taxes, which makes them more
bearable. For example, universal health care. In fact,
the range of benifits extends far beyond that.
I think there should be much more outrage about the
low pay and long work hours that we suffer in the
States. The plethora of temp jobs with no prospects or
benefits is even more galling. The average worker in
the States is also working 6 to 8 weeks longer per
year than in Western Europe. Besides the shorter work
week, they enjoy more holidays and longer vacations.
Mothers, and is some cases fathers, get far more time
off for maternity leave.
Your next statement underscores my point. And I
seriously doubt that you are working that many hours
to pay your taxes.
>
> Sad, but necessary. I currently average 85-100
> hours per week.
> I could’ve invested that money
> and gotten some
> return, rather than having it rest in the
> governments bank account.
Agree.
> I’m talking about Income Taxes, Federal Taxes, not
> state taxes. I
> hardly think paying a few dollars in State taxes
> qualifies as a Tax
> Payer, especially when our resources are being
> utilized- Insurance
> and welfare programs, etc.
I was actually speaking of sales tax. Also, it is not
true that all immigrants are not paying federal taxes.
An increasing amount are in fact paying. But, given
the paltry wages that those who aren’t paying earn, do
you really think that their taxes would put even a
minor dent in the overall U.S. tax burden? It would be
miniscule. You seem to expect miracles from the most
down-trodden, exploited members of our work force. I
believe that ending corporate welfare and making the
rich pay would be a far more viable solution.
> Let me be Clear – They were LEGALS and they were
> NOT paid by the
> Company, they were Paid by the STATE of MAINE. They
> were GIVEN money
> By the State to Be Here and the STATE was given
> FEDERAL dollars to
> Support them. They were very Open about bragging
> about their good
> fortune.
Thanks for clarifying. This is simply welfare for the
rich, this company was given money to lure workers
that they otherwise would not have been able to get
without paying more money.
> I don’t know what part of the country you are
> from, But an
> executive order issued in 2004 has turned Maine into
> the nation’s
> only sanctuary state, where people in the country
> illegally are
> entitled to the full range of welfare benefits,
> driver’s licenses,
> and other privileges intended for lawful state
> residents.
> https://www.teamdean08.com/press_12.04.07.html
I think anyone who works in this country should be
extended the full range of benefits. I know that we
will never agree on this.
America was built historically by immigrants: those
that have died on the railroads, in the factories, and
out in the fields. And, historically, we have always
fought to keep them down. I think your anger toward
them is misdirected, and many of us, if we look at our
own ancestry, were actually immigrants from other
nations looking to better our condition. True, they
might have been legal immigrants, but that is the
capriciousness of the law these days. The reason they
are not “legal” is simply that we want them on the
cheap. They, like many of us legals now, are simply
disposable labor. We turn a blind eye to them when we
(usually business interests) want them here, but want
to reserve the right to dutifully dispose of them if
the situation calls for it. I call that not accepting
responsibility.
Would everything be OK with you if we just legalized
all the immigrants who are already here?
> LOL, I think you misunderstand, Quite Frankly, I
> wasn’t complaining-
> I was offering a solution.
> I think the country needs some solutions to some of
> their issues-
> and this country certainly has many issues to
> contend with.
> I am aware of that, there are far too many people
> that feel the US
> should be supporting all these other countries and
> taking care of the
> world instead of taking care of their own right
> here.
This is factually misleading. Compare to other
industrialized countries, the U.S. gives a smaller
proportion of aid to other countries. This is just a
fact. Moreover, our aid tends to go to the hands of
the already wealthy in those poorer nations, and not
to those who need it the most. It is basically just a
tool to prop up our foreign policy, which in many
cases entails propping up dictators and other corrupt
regimes.
>
> Like Oprah- she pays to start schools in Other
> countries- why not fix
> the schools in Our Country? Whatever… you reap
> what you sow. If you
> dig the others out before you dig yourself out,
> you’ll still be a
> hole when you’re done.
I have to applaud Oprah for helping out anyone. First
and foremost, I consider myself a citizen of the
planet. My nation, state, and city come behind that.
I also think it is sad that Oprah herself would have
to even consider helping out U.S. citizens. That is
what the tax dollars were supposed to do in the first
place. It is a mark of shame that poverty in the U.S.
still even exists. And it is a total crime what
happened in New Orleans and our national neglect.
> Well, I appreciate your concern about our finances-
> but I suppose
> if I knew EVERYONE was paying the same amount, I
> could deal with that
> hit quite easily.
>
> You mentioned that I seem to get hot under the
> collar about this
> topic, I guess I do.. I’ve had this website
> Budget101.com for nearly
> 10 years. Some years it COST me major money to keep
> it open, some
> years I had enough sponsor help that it generated
> some money. Over
> ALL of those years, I have watched & listened to
> people who struggle
> every single day to make ends meet, people wonder
> whether they should
> quit their jobs be on welfare and get state
> insurance because it pays
> Better than working an honest days work. I’ve
> watched people lose
> their jobs, get new jobs, get relocated for jobs and
> it’s all the
> still the same… People in this Country are
> fighting to get ahead
> and stay ahead. They’re paying more in taxes than
> they ever have in
> history and keeping even less of their paychecks.
> They are losing
> their homes to foreclosure and have little to
> nothing saved for
> retirements. You can call it whining about illegals
> or social
> programs, I call it facing reality.
This is very well spoken. I applaud your efforts with
the website and agree with much of this paragraph. It
is truly sad if someone has such a lousy job that they
would prefer welfare!
I call facing reality something different. These phony
simplistic tax schemes are being promoted by a lot of
snake-oil salesmen and are no more believable than an
infomercial. If our federal taxes were simply paid by
a sales tax, what happens when a downturn in the
economy occurs and people aren’t buying. Or, like you,
people catch on to buying used or bartering. Then
where does the money to support our bloated military
come from?
Alternatively, these “flat tax” proposals are designed
to shift more of the burden to the poor and middle
class. It is we who will be forced to pay the increase
as the rich get off even lighter again.
>
> The reality is- if we don’t change something SOON
> the US economy is
> going to Crash Severely- and No Country out there is
> going to help
> get us back on our feet.
I hope things aren’t that bleak, but I realize it is
possible. I think we agree here far more than we
disagree. I just don’t think that immigrants, dope
dealers, and ho’s being taxed is going to bail us
out.
They all might have their faults, but scapegoating
them for our economic woes isn’t the answer. I just
think that some of your passion is slightly
misdirected. No big deal.
Peace,
Wayne
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