taxes and the wealthy- Budget101 Discussion List

This came across my desk the other day. I'm obviously not rolling in it, or I might not be here, but I do recognize the relevance of the snippet. I think a flat tax would be great, because then nobody can whine about it, and everyone knows just what to expect. Whining, in any area of

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  1. #1
    Carole Durand
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    This came across my desk the other day. I'm obviously not rolling in

    it, or I might not be here, but I do recognize the relevance of the

    snippet. I think a flat tax would be great, because then nobody can

    whine about it, and everyone knows just what to expect. Whining, in

    any area of life, generates NOTHING positive... Have a great day!

    Carole



    Bar Room Economics



    Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all

    ten

    comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it

    would go

    something like this:



    The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

    The fifth would pay $1.

    The sixth would pay $3.

    The seventh would pay $7.

    The eighth would pay $12.

    The ninth would pay $18.

    The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.



    So, that's what they decided to do.



    The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the

    arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you

    are all

    such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your

    daily

    beer by $20.' Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.



    The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so

    the

    first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But

    what

    about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide

    the

    $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They

    realized that

    $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from

    everybody's

    share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being

    paid to

    drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to

    reduce

    each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work

    out the

    amounts each should pay.



    And so:

    The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

    The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

    The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

    The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

    The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

    The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).



    Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four

    continued to

    drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to

    compare

    their savings.



    'I only got a dollar out of the $20,'declared the sixth man. He

    pointed to

    the tenth man,' but he got $10!' 'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the

    fifth

    man. 'I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times

    more

    than I!' 'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get

    $10

    back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!' 'Wait a

    minute,'

    yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all.

    The

    system exploits the poor!'



    The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.



    The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine

    sat down

    and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they

    discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between

    all of

    them for even half of the bill!



    And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors,

    is how

    our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the

    most

    benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being

    wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might

    start

    drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.



    David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

    Professor of Economics

    University of Georgia










  2. #2
    Wayne Benner
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    I suppose a flat tax would be sensational if it was

    coupled with a flat income. In other words, everyone

    earns $100,000/yr. and is taxed equally on it.



    The flat tax is simply more class warfare on the poor

    and those who don't earn a living wage. It is a

    regressive tax by definition.



    The only way we are going to begin to get out of our

    economic woes is by mandating a living wage and

    increasing taxes on the rich.



    Just my opinion, and of course, I would never

    complain.





    --- Carole Durand <go4awalleye@yahoo.com> wrote:



    > This came across my desk the other day. I'm

    > obviously not rolling in

    > it, or I might not be here, but I do recognize the

    > relevance of the

    > snippet.






  3. #3
    Karen Pierce
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy



    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">What WOULD work is if everyone were charged the same percentage. No matter what you earn, you would pay, say 10% or whatever on income tax. If you earn less, you'd pay less...the more you earn, the more you pay, but the same percentage.
    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">
    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">You'd be amazed how much MORE the government would get that way - the upper class pays about HALF the percentage rate as middle class. If everyone paid the same percentage rate, the government would be rolling in dough.
    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">
    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">KarenP

    <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #008000 2px solid;">
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Wayne Benner
    To: Budget101_@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:11 AM
    Subject: Re: Budget101.com : taxes and the wealthy





    I suppose a flat tax would be sensational if it was
    coupled with a flat income. In other words, everyone
    earns $100,000/yr. and is taxed equally on it.

    The flat tax is simply more class warfare on the poor
    and those who don't earn a living wage. It is a
    regressive tax by definition.

    The only way we are going to begin to get out of our
    economic woes is by mandating a living wage and
    increasing taxes on the rich.

    Just my opinion, and of course, I would never
    complain.

    --- Carole Durand <go4awalleye@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > This came across my desk the other day. I'm
    > obviously not rolling in
    > it, or I might not be here, but I do recognize the
    > relevance of the
    > snippet.




  4. #4
    Liss
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    This is probably going to piss a few people off, but Personally I

    believe we should do the following:



    1. Get Rid of the IRS completely- NO Income taxes at all.



    2. Set a Tax on Goods- (exmaple) 5% on everything which goes to the

    government for all their programs. That way, no matter what you buy-

    you are paying taxes in to the government.



    Which means, if you pay 10,000 for a car- you pay 5% tax on it to the

    government, if you buy a $100,000 for a hummer, you pay 5% on it.

    Obviously those that are buying in excess will be paying a bit more.



    The tax should not include items Fuel, Groceries but should include

    Homes, Property, Vehicles, all all goods like TVs, Stereos etc.



    Why? Because instead of a few Americans paying in taxes EVERYONE would

    be forced to pay taxes.



    It would remove the attack against the poor complaints and the attack

    against the rich complaints. If you want to buy crap, pay for it.



    All the (millions) of illegals in the US would be paying taxes- they'd

    have no choice.. they're here, they're going to buy "stuff". Think of

    ALL the money that would be generated from the MILLIONS of illegals

    Alone!!!



    The Pimps, Prostitutes, Drug Dealers that aren't paying any taxes in on

    the "Tips" and income they generate would suddenly have to pay. They'd

    be paying everytime they bought "bling".



    The US would save BILLIONS of dollars by removing the IRS. Think of all

    the man hours that would no longer have to be paid and the amount of

    stress that people go through filing taxes- the depression

    subscriptions that would DROP. Etc etc



    If ALL the people in the US paid taxes in this manner, the government

    would have More money than they could shake a stick at.



    People that are Frugal, that aren't stuck in consumerism hell would be

    the ones that paid the least. If you're happy with the things you have

    then you'd be saving quite a bit of money, wouldn't you?



    Obviously- we live in a society of Gimmee, Gimmee, Gimmee, we need to

    change how the country is run to keep up with the times.



    Thats My .02 on Taxes...



    ~Liss










  5. #5
    Monique
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    I agree that our government would save lots by getting rid of the

    people who work for the IRS, but where are those people going to work?



    On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Liss <liss@budget101.com> wrote:

    >

    >

    >

    >

    > This is probably going to piss a few people off, but Personally I

    > believe we should do the following:

    >

    > 1. Get Rid of the IRS completely- NO Income taxes at all.

    >

    > 2. Set a Tax on Goods- (exmaple) 5% on everything which goes to the

    > government for all their programs. That way, no matter what you buy-

    > you are paying taxes in to the government.

    >

    > Which means, if you pay 10,000 for a car- you pay 5% tax on it to the

    > government, if you buy a $100,000 for a hummer, you pay 5% on it.

    > Obviously those that are buying in excess will be paying a bit more.

    >

    > The tax should not include items Fuel, Groceries but should include

    > Homes, Property, Vehicles, all all goods like TVs, Stereos etc.

    >

    > Why? Because instead of a few Americans paying in taxes EVERYONE would

    > be forced to pay taxes.

    >

    > It would remove the attack against the poor complaints and the attack

    > against the rich complaints. If you want to buy crap, pay for it.

    >

    > All the (millions) of illegals in the US would be paying taxes- they'd

    > have no choice.. they're here, they're going to buy "stuff". Think of

    > ALL the money that would be generated from the MILLIONS of illegals

    > Alone!!!

    >

    > The Pimps, Prostitutes, Drug Dealers that aren't paying any taxes in on

    > the "Tips" and income they generate would suddenly have to pay. They'd

    > be paying everytime they bought "bling".

    >

    > The US would save BILLIONS of dollars by removing the IRS. Think of all

    > the man hours that would no longer have to be paid and the amount of

    > stress that people go through filing taxes- the depression

    > subscriptions that would DROP. Etc etc

    >

    > If ALL the people in the US paid taxes in this manner, the government

    > would have More money than they could shake a stick at.

    >

    > People that are Frugal, that aren't stuck in consumerism hell would be

    > the ones that paid the least. If you're happy with the things you have

    > then you'd be saving quite a bit of money, wouldn't you?

    >

    > Obviously- we live in a society of Gimmee, Gimmee, Gimmee, we need to

    > change how the country is run to keep up with the times.

    >

    > Thats My .02 on Taxes...

    >

    > ~Liss

    >

    >







    --

    Monique






  6. #6
    Karen Pierce
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy



    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">Hear Hear!!!!
    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">
    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">KP
    <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #008000 2px solid;">
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Liss
    To: Budget101_@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 8:14 AM
    Subject: Re: Budget101.com : taxes and the wealthy





    This is probably going to piss a few people off, but Personally I
    believe we should do the following:

    1. Get Rid of the IRS completely- NO Income taxes at all.

    2. Set a Tax on Goods- (exmaple) 5% on everything which goes to the
    government for all their programs. That way, no matter what you buy-
    you are paying taxes in to the government.

    Which means, if you pay 10,000 for a car- you pay 5% tax on it to the
    government, if you buy a $100,000 for a hummer, you pay 5% on it.
    Obviously those that are buying in excess will be paying a bit more.

    The tax should not include items Fuel, Groceries but should include
    Homes, Property, Vehicles, all all goods like TVs, Stereos etc.

    Why? Because instead of a few Americans paying in taxes EVERYONE would
    be forced to pay taxes.

    It would remove the attack against the poor complaints and the attack
    against the rich complaints. If you want to buy crap, pay for it.

    All the (millions) of illegals in the US would be paying taxes- they'd
    have no choice.. they're here, they're going to buy "stuff". Think of
    ALL the money that would be generated from the MILLIONS of illegals
    Alone!!!

    The Pimps, Prostitutes, Drug Dealers that aren't paying any taxes in on
    the "Tips" and income they generate would suddenly have to pay. They'd
    be paying everytime they bought "bling".

    The US would save BILLIONS of dollars by removing the IRS. Think of all
    the man hours that would no longer have to be paid and the amount of
    stress that people go through filing taxes- the depression
    subscriptions that would DROP. Etc etc

    If ALL the people in the US paid taxes in this manner, the government
    would have More money than they could shake a stick at.

    People that are Frugal, that aren't stuck in consumerism hell would be
    the ones that paid the least. If you're happy with the things you have
    then you'd be saving quite a bit of money, wouldn't you?

    Obviously- we live in a society of Gimmee, Gimmee, Gimmee, we need to
    change how the country is run to keep up with the times.

    Thats My .02 on Taxes...

    ~Liss
    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">





  7. #7
    Liss
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    --- In Budget101_@yahoogroups.com, Monique <motherof1@...> wrote:

    >

    > I agree that our government would save lots by getting rid of the

    > people who work for the IRS, but where are those people going to work?

    >



    Factories, McDonalds, Walmart, other companies- same as all the rest

    of us.



    If we stopped giving breaks to corporations over seas, the

    corporations would move back to the US and they'd have plenty of damn

    jobs here!



    If we changed our foreign trade policy we'd have more jobs in the US.



    Besides that, if we had a flat tax and people weren't losing $200-300 a

    week out of your check in taxes- they could use that towards Health

    Insurance/ Health Care.



    This country needs some Common Sense.

    ~Liss








  8. #8
    Nancy R
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    ----- Original Message -----

    > 1. Get Rid of the IRS completely- NO Income taxes at all.

    >

    > 2. Set a Tax on Goods- (exmaple) 5% on everything which goes to the

    > government for all their programs. That way, no matter what you buy-

    > you are paying taxes in to the government.

    >

    I agree!! However there would still need to be a compliance office to make

    sure the sales tax collected is actually remitted to the govt.



    Remember that tax laws come from Congress & are often designed to benefit a

    certain business (oil, for instance) or a certain group of people. The

    rich may pay a lot of income taxes but many are in a position to set their

    own salaries which are "grossed up" so they end up with what they actually

    want to earn. These are the people who also control wages for everyone

    else. Being underpaid is really paying a tax if you think about it.



    Nancy, retired CPA








  9. #9
    Monique
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    I get what you're saying. And, I agree with it for the most part.

    But, you're making the assumption that all of these places are hiring.

    And, you're making the assumption that people who are making $15/hour

    could afford to work for $7/hour. I used to manage mickey dee's and

    we weren't always hiring.



    On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Liss <liss@budget101.com> wrote:

    >

    >

    >

    >

    > --- In Budget101_@yahoogroups.com, Monique <motherof1@...> wrote:

    > >

    > > I agree that our government would save lots by getting rid of the

    > > people who work for the IRS, but where are those people going to work?

    > >

    >

    > Factories, McDonalds, Walmart, other companies- same as all the rest

    > of us.

    >

    > If we stopped giving breaks to corporations over seas, the

    > corporations would move back to the US and they'd have plenty of damn

    > jobs here!

    >

    > If we changed our foreign trade policy we'd have more jobs in the US.

    >

    > Besides that, if we had a flat tax and people weren't losing $200-300 a

    > week out of your check in taxes- they could use that towards Health

    > Insurance/ Health Care.

    >

    > This country needs some Common Sense.

    > ~Liss

    >

    >

    >

    >







    --

    Monique






  10. #10
    Andrea
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    > I agree!! However there would still need to be a compliance office

    to make

    > sure the sales tax collected is actually remitted to the govt.<<



    perfect, there ya go, jobs for the IRS ppl...








  11. #11
    Lori
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    With a flat tax aperson earning less will obviously pay less than a person earning more, however, they will pay substantiallyhigher percentageof their discretionary income, if they even have any. A flat tax is by no means fair. Besides, the difference in overall tax rates (all taxes, not just federal income tax) between various income levels, while there, is not all that huge and until you get to the very few top earners it goes up as income goes up. Lori.
    Karen Pierce <karen729@sbcglobal.net> wrote: <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">What WOULD work is if everyone were charged the same percentage. No matter what you earn, you would pay, say 10% or whatever on income tax. If you earn less, you'd pay less...the more you earn, the more you pay, but the same percentage. <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4"> <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">You'd be amazed how much MORE the government would get that way - the upper class pays about HALF the percentage rate as middle class. If everyone paid the same percentage rate, the government would be rolling in dough. <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4"> <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#008000" size="4">KarenP <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #008000 2px solid;"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
    arial;">----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Benner To: Budget101_@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Budget101.com : taxes and the wealthy
    I suppose a flat tax would be sensational if it was
    coupled with a flat income. In other words, everyone
    earns $100,000/yr. and is taxed equally on it.

    The flat tax is simply more class warfare on the poor
    and those who don't earn a living wage. It is a
    regressive tax by definition.

    The only way we are going to begin to get out of our
    economic woes is by mandating a living wage
    and
    increasing taxes on the rich.

    Just my opinion, and of course, I would never
    complain.

    --- Carole Durand <go4awalleye@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > This came across my desk the other day. I'm
    > obviously not rolling in
    > it, or I might not be here, but I do recognize the
    > relevance of the
    > snippet.



    &#32;
    Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. [/url] "] Try it now.[/url]


  12. #12
    Jenny Darocha
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    I agree with Liss!! I compliance office is nothing compared to the monster IRS we have now. How much simpler is it to track a flat percentage tax on luxury items rather than have a team of accountants to navigate the pages and pages of tax law that we currently have. That&#39;s another reason that the rich are benefitted by our current system. They&#39;re the only ones who can afford accountants who can really figure this stuff out! lol
    I&#39;m sorry that all the IRS employees would have to find new jobs because this current system is not their fault, but not sorry enough to continue on with this terrible system of tax law. Even if the government paid them 6 months to a year of severance and gave them help in finding new jobs (which you know they would) it would be a small cost to pay in the long run for a better system that is cheaper to run.

    The only problem is that our government will never get enough people in the legislature to agree toapprove a great system like this. They all have their own agendas and most are greatly influenced by the rich (who would hate this type of system where they can&#39;t escape paying).
    Let&#39;s start a grass-roots revolution!!
    Jenny D

    On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Nancy R <nancyr@ntin.net> wrote:









    <div class="Ih2E3d">----- Original Message -----
    > 1. Get Rid of the IRS completely- NO Income taxes at all.
    >
    > 2. Set a Tax on Goods- (exmaple) 5% on everything which goes to the
    > government for all their programs. That way, no matter what you buy-

    > you are paying taxes in to the government.
    >
    I agree!! However there would still need to be a compliance office to make
    sure the sales tax collected is actually remitted to the govt.



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  13. #13
    Lori
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    It's really no where near that simple. What about foreign trade policy that favors the U.S? If we remove the policies that are beneficial toother countriesthen we'll end up having to remove the ones that penalize them, too. Otherwise there won't be foreign trade, which our economy is heavily dependent upon. And a flat tax is likely to be a huge burden to the poorest who already pay the least in overall taxes, while only make a small difference to the richest. Most folks are likely not to see a change at all. The difference in overall tax rates is not that huge. Even with a substantially reduced IRS. The difference in overall tax rates is not that huge. Lori.
    Liss <liss@budget101.com> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="BORDER-LEFT:
    #1010ff 2px solid;"> --- In Budget101_@yahoogroups.com, Monique <motherof1@...> wrote:
    >
    > I agree that our government would save lots by getting rid of the
    > people who work for the IRS, but where are those people going to work?
    >

    Factories, McDonalds, Walmart, other companies- same as all the rest
    of us.

    If we stopped giving breaks to corporations over seas, the
    corporations would move back to the US and they'd have plenty of damn
    jobs here!

    If we changed our foreign trade policy we'd have more jobs in the US.

    Besides that, if we had a flat tax and
    people weren't losing $200-300 a
    week out of your check in taxes- they could use that towards Health
    Insurance/ Health Care.

    This country needs some Common Sense.
    ~Liss




    &#32;



  14. #14
    Jenny Darocha
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    I just have to point out that Liss was not promoting a flat tax. She was talking about a sales tax on
    luxury items. That would clearly benefit the poor while forcing the rich to pay (by removing loop holes).
    And even if the difference in my taxes is not that great with a smaller IRS, it&#39;s still a savings!
    Why continue paying for a huge organization that is not needed??
    Jenny D


    On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Lori <lorimakesquilts@yahoo.com> wrote:











    And a flat tax is likely to be a huge burden to the poorest who already pay the least in overall taxes, while only make a small difference to the richest. Most folks are likely not to see a change at all. The difference in overall tax rates is not that huge. Even with a substantially reduced IRS. The difference in overall tax rates is not that huge.

    Lori.
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  15. #15
    Liss
    Guest

    Default taxes and the wealthy


    --- In Budget101_@yahoogroups.com, Lori <lorimakesquilts@...> wrote:

    >

    > It's really no where near that simple. What about foreign trade

    policy that favors the U.S? <<<



    It's not about having having a policy that favors the US, its about

    a policy that Favors BOTH countries. Instead of the US getting a

    Matchbox car and Japan getting 5 Billion Dollars worth of Cars sold

    here, we ought to even it out a bit. Make it favorable for Both

    Countries. Not kiss another countries rump for something they MIGHT

    do for us 20 years from now.



    On top that, whatever we import ought to face Stricter standards

    lest we have 4 million more kids with autism and nerve damage, etc

    from their lead Paint laden toys.

    Our own Factories and corporations within the US face strict

    scrutiny, but these other countries standards are piss poor and we

    kiss their rumps and beg for their business accepting whatever drivel

    they send. It's pitiful and Dangerous.





    > And a flat tax is likely to be a huge burden to the poorest who

    already pay the least in overall taxes, while only make a small

    difference to the richest.<<<



    I'm not talking about a Flat Tax, I'm talking about taxing Goods. If

    you want to buy a big Screen tv, you should pay taxes on it. If you

    want to have loads and loads of "Stuff" then you should pay for it.

    Not only to support the government, but to help pay for the impact of

    your purchases on the Environment. Maybe it would take something of

    This Magnitude to slow down the Consumerism thinking in this Country.

    Just because a new gadget hit the shelves doesn't mean we should

    all run out and buy one, and if you do, Great, pay taxes on it.



    What about the estimated 10+ Million Illegals in this country? Do

    you think they are paying anything to be here?? What about the

    prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers, that rake in thousands and

    thousands of dollars that go untaxed?



    >>while only make a small difference to the richest<<



    It seems to bother you most that people with More money don't have

    to Pay more... If you're all paying 5% (or whatever amount) it's

    equally fair.

    Personally, I don't give a rats behind what the guy next door makes,

    if he earns it, that's his business. If he wants to buy a 5 million

    dollar house and pay 5% Great, I'll buy my 100,000 house and pay 5%.



    I don't understand why you feel that the Rich should be penalized

    for their success? It feels like you want to impose a jealousy tax.

    They have it so they should pay it and I'm broke so I shouldnt have

    to. If your that broke, you shouldn't be wasting money on frivolous

    items that you cant afford.



    If I made $500,000 a year because I succeeded in business or the

    stock market I sure as hell wouldn't feel it was fair to pay double

    in taxes because I made some smart choices.



    The smart choice in this idea is- if you don't want to pay more in

    taxes- than don't buy a bunch of stuff you don't need. You don't NEED

    a new car every year, you don't NEED the newest gadget that pops up

    in on your Big Screen, the point is, if you Live within your Means

    then you will pay less.



    Liss










 

 
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